Friday Conversation: Comparing The Black Sheep
In the 1980’s, Jason Voorhees, Michael Myers and Freddy Krueger were the kings of horror. Each character in their repspective franchises commanded the attention of the fans and censors alike. Marketing and merchandising was at an all time high and profits were through the roof. So, many in the film industry as well as the fans of these movies wondered why, after all of their successes, they would change the formula or stories altogether.
In 1982, the Halloween franchise shifted gears and left Michael Myers behind to embark on an entirely new story about the maniacal Conel Cochran with his terminator like robots and magically possessed Halloween masks. The idea of John Carpenter and Debra Hill to create a type of Anthology series of films seemed like a great idea at the time as everything Carpenter touched turned to gold. However, as everyone found out, you don’t change something that works, as fan backlash destroyed the franchise for six years.
The one constant in the Friday the 13th franchise is Jason Voorhees. Even in the original 1980 film, Jason made his appearance towards the end of the movie to scare audiences around the world. So, it baffled fans when Paramount decided to kill Jason in 1984 and eventually create a new Friday film without their star as the main focus of the franchise. The decision to move forward with Tommy as the new killer still baffles many faithful followers and still is a focus of discussions 25 years later.
Looking at these two films, which black sheep of their respective franchise is the hardest to swallow in terms of concept as it relates to the movie series they belong to? Is there one movie out of the two that is more superior to it’s predecessor in terms of production value and story concept? Are both just as relevant in their film series as the others within the Halloween and Friday the 13th franchises?
As much as I love Michael Myers, an anthology type Halloween movie every year would have rocked, had people been able to accept it. Maybe ever few installments could have caught us up on Myers whereabouts. I like part III, for all its wacky-campy-bizarre fun. But, as it stands within the series? I don’t think it can, since we see the original advertised on a tv. So this is a world where Michael is a character, not real.
As for F13 V… Not as much love for me there. It was a bad ploy to try and make us believe Jason was back, but then it wasn’t Jason, it wasn’t even Tommy, it was some dumb, vengeful EMT channeling Pamela Voorhees don’t-hurt-my-baby schtick. Not good. And then when they do make it seem like Tommy will be the new killer at the end, they go and dump the whole thing. Jason IS F13, end of story.
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I don’t agree that Friday The 13th IS Jason, after all, the original movie had Pamela Voorhees as the killer, which was arguably the best movie of the entire series.
There is a difference between these two black sheep, Season of The Witch is an enormous departure from the second Halloween movie, A New Beginning however, looks a lot like its predecessors. The plot is familiar; kids are away from grown ups, a guy in a hockey mask kills them. What I’m trying to say is, A New Beginning isn’t weird enough to be a black sheep. In a way, Season of The Witch is a more accomplished black sheep because it is so far away removed from the franchise, whereas A New Beginning is very similar to previous entries.
Halloween III is brilliant in my opinion, it has the whole feel of the Halloween season down to a T and I do love it.
Friday the 13th: A New Beginning is clever idea but not very well executed still as a Friday the 13th it has almost everything you want naked ladies and some decent kills.
But to compare them I’d say H3 is better than Part V. I watch Halloween 3 every year at Halloween whereas Part V I can take or leave it.
I dig it. They’re more diversions from the course than Black Sheep though, Michael Myers meets Busta Rhymes IMO is the black sheep of that respective franchise. But if Halloween III is to Friday the 13th Part V, then Halloween 4 is to Friday the 13th Part VI as being the white sheep of each franchise.
Anybody else have a soft spot in their heart for Halloween 6 The Curse of Michael Myers, originally titled Halloween The Origin of Michael Myers? Because I do. I wonder what Dr. Loomis would have thought of Jason…
ooh ooh ooh, In regards to Halloween 4 I meant white sheep as far as sequels go
I think that if there was no Halloween 2 with Michael Myers and they jumped right to Season Of The Witch, that perhaps fans would have received the anthology idea better. Once you establish a franchise with an iconic killer, you can’t use the same title for an entirely different film.
As for A New Beginning, I personally do not think that it is black sheep in the franchise. It plays out just as the previous four films, with more of a body count and a lot more crazy and fun characters. If Tommy was revealed to be the killer in the end, I wonder if fans would have been less upset?
I love A New Beginning.
I have watched it recently and it is a fun movie.
“Halloween III” and “Friday the 13th Part V” are actually the smartest and most cleaver of all the sequels to their respective series. I have no problems with them in their franchises and consider “Halloween III” better than anything that followed it. “Friday the 13th Part V” for me is very sentimental; it was the first “Friday” that I saw at the theater and actually the first “Friday” that really got to me and scared me. I know, I’m a wuss. “Friday the 13th Part V” was actually pretty violent and had that “Friday the 13th” feel much like “Halloween III” had that ‘John Carpenter’ feel look to it; sadly for both series, both swayed away from that feel with “Friday 6” and Halloween 4”.
I look at ‘Friday 5’ and Hallo 3’ fondly as the final heydays for their franchises; both franchises completely changed the next time out: “Zombie Jason” and the older, fatter and the deplorable and unwatchable “Halloween’s”. A BIG, HUGE middle finger the “New Line” for messing up the “Friday” series and also to the Akkad family for squeezing the milk out of the “Halloween” cash cow’s tit.
i think each one is the most disturbing film in the series up to that point; not necessarily scariest, but most offputting… in a good way? Maybe it’s because we’re no longer on solid ground with the franchise conventions. H3 definitely freaked me out as a kid and I love it to this day; my favorite entry in a series I’m not that into.
Friday 5 fits right in with the f13 series and is sort of a black sheep at the same time. I love that it establishes that Jason really IS dead; making his legend all the more sinister. (zombies don’t scare me too much) At the same time you have to ask… why? Wtf is up with Roy?? Why did they ever decide on that? Still, a totally awesome movie. My 4th favorite “Friday”
I really liked Halloween 3: Season of the Witch alot! I liked it more than F13: A new Beginning. I think they both are good though.
I think Halloween 3 would have been better received if they would have dropped the H3 and called it Season of the Witch. The film also might have worked if Season of the Witch would have been Halloween 2 and not the Halloween 2 we have now.(Although, I love the original H2) It would have been instresting to see what would have been if they would have continue the anthology theme, but then we wouldn’t have michael myers. I think that they would have revisted Myers later on if they would have kept the anthology theme going.
Honestly, As much as I love Halloween, I look at it as a trilogy (Halloween, H2, & H20). Halloween 4 is ok, Halloween 5 sucked, Halloween 6 is not bad but the producer’s cut was pretty badass, Halloween Resurrection was terrible!(Resurrection should be the black sheep in my opinion)
Sorry… got on my soap box there! anyway, I have never had much love for Friday part 5. It’s never grown on me over the years like other films have. Everytime I watch it, I feel like I need to go take a shower. It’s just a dirty feeling film. I don’t know why? It just doesn’t have the vibe like the other Friday films. You get a uneasy feeling watching it. I feel Paramount was just trying to milk more money out of us by putting a piece of crap together with a hockey mask on it and calling it Friday the 13th. Fans didn’t buy into it and they did the smart thing and brought Jason back. I will never like this film no matter how hard I try. To each his own!
I do own the film though. I’m a completist.
I used to not like Jason goes to Hell(not as much a part 5)but that change with the dvd. After watching the film with audio commentary, I really started to appreciate and understand what the film makers where trying to do. They where trying to breath new life into the series. It work for some and didn’t work for others.
Kirk your kiddin’ me right? Jason Lives transcended the genre and Halloween 4 is an upper tier sequel! This is common knowledge. You know what if you’re really comparing theatrical film franchises with video games than your opinion makes sense.
I remember Friday Part V being the first one I ever rented on my own and watched, think I was 8 or 9…and I remember even back then being like WTF is this garbage?
Kirk your kiddin’ me right? Jason Lives transcended the genre and Halloween 4 is an upper tier sequel! This is common knowledge. You know what if you’re really comparing theatrical film franchises with video games than your opinion makes sense. -David
“Transcended a genre”….really?
I guess that is why it’s called “opinions.” If you like what came after Part V and Hallo III, good for you. But, what I saw and MANY saw, were the same xeroxed formulas over and over. Maybe you like seeing some little girl cowering from Myers or a Zombified Jason, sadly slashers were going down based on these factors.
Please read Going to Pieces by Adam Rockoff and John Carpenter: Prince of Darkness by Gilles Boulenger.
Well I have to say Im a fan of both FT13th part 5 and Halloween 3. The mistake with Halloween 3, is that its called Halloween 3. They shouldve dropped the Halloween and called it Season Of The Witch. I know theres no Michael Myers in part 3, but its undeniabley a scary horror film. When I first saw it when I was little, it scared the crap out of Me more than Halloween 1 and 2 did. The idea of masks that can melt a kids head and make bugs and worms crawl out of His sockets is just terrifying. And it also had alot of gore and blood like the guy that gets His head pulled off by one of Cochrans robots. I think Tommy Lee Wallace did an outstanding job as director for Halloween 3. He was offered the task of directing part 2 but He declined. And the one who came up with the idea of taking Myers out of the film was the late Moustapha Akkad. But He realized His mistake afterwards, and 6 years later He gave us Halloween 4 which in My opinion is one of the best in the series. I just seperate Halloween 3 from the series, how I deal with the no Myers thing. Because its a great horror film and I will always love it.
Now FT13th part 5, Ive said this many times before on here. Its a great installment. I consider it a better part of the series than Jason Goes To Hell which is more of a black sheep to the series. In part 5, ok theres no Jason. But Roy dispatched of the teens just as well as Jason does. In fact some of the kills were more creative like Eddies death. The belt around the eyes, I just didnt see it coming. Sure You dont see Roy through most of the film, just His hands and arms and legs. But when you think about it, thats alot like Mrs. Voorhees in part 1. You dont see Her at all until the final battle. But when You finally see Roy hockey mask and all its like wtf thats not Jason. You can tell its someone impersonating Him. No axe mark on the head, Hes more slender, and His hockey mask has blue cherverons instead of red. You just wonder through that final battle, who the hell is this guy? He may be no Jason but He takes alot of damage. A steam shovel to the gut, a chainsaw to the arm, Tommys knife in His leg (a real bad spot in the leg to be stabbed) Roy was just unstoppable. Part 5 is awesome. It follows the formula from the previous 4 films. It has alot of great kills, alot of nudity including the nicest tit shot in the franchise (Debisue Voorhees). And a great cast as well. Plus I like the idea that Roy goes after outpatients instead of counslers. All and all its a great movie.
I want to close in giving everyone here the worst example of taking the villian out of the horror movie. I think the award would go to Hellraiser 5: Inferno. They freakin took Pinhead out of the movie except for one short scene (The ending) and a flash of His face earlier in the film. I know the later Hellraiser films went direct to DVD including the upcoming “Revelations”. But in parts 6-8 Pinhead was in alot more scenes. But man Im telling You Hellraiser 5 was a complete joke. I mean in Jason Goes To Hell they take Jason out of most of the film, but at least the story is still about Him. In Hellraiser 5 they dont even talk about the cenobites or the box. I cant remember if I even saw the box at all. All Im saying Halloween 3 and FT13th part 5 doesnt even come close to how terrible Hellraiser:Inferno is.
I feel that Part 5 fits the cannon of Friday VERY well! It is part 9 that is the black sheep. It doesn’t belong at all.
Black Sheep wise neither do any damage at all to their respective franchises (I hold up Halloween six as being the true black sheep of that franchise). Both are fun to watch in their own way. I do remember vividly how pissed off everyone was when A NEW BEGINNING came out. Very pissed. That hasn’t really gone away even though the movie itself was fun. SEASON OF THE WITH was so far from the reservation that while it pissed people off it was quickly passed over.
Halloween III: Season of The Witch still had Dundey as a Director of Photography, in that perspective it’s closer to the first two movies than any that followed after that. Halloween III had a great score as well, really atmospheric, great 80’s synth record.
Carpenter wanted to do something else with the franchise because he found that the Michael Myers story was told. Which makes sense. He wanted to turn the Halloween franchise in a sort of The Twilight Zone, where every movie dealt with a different supernatural element on Halloween night. He also though about making it about the aftermath of the events in the first 2 movies, how does a small town deal with such a tragedy?
I’m a proud Halloween series fan, and I can’t say how upset Halloween 3 made the fans, it is by far the biggest black sheep of all of slasher/horror movies! Just go to any Halloween discussion to find that out, horrible horrible horrible, complete and total garbage! lol now that being said, I really don’t mind Friday 5, I mean I would look at Jason goes to hell as more of a black sheep, and I know a lot of people do. Sorry Jasonsfury I know how much you like this film, but I just can’t buy into it I’ve tried many times, but hey that is why we are all individuals right, anyhow great topic, seems to have gotten quite a few people stirred up, even me!
Halloween 3 was crap!
Friday 5 was also crap but sitting in a rose.
Meaning, H3 stunk
So do Friday 5, BUT somewhat tolerable.
I loved H3. I agree that it should have just been called Season of the Witch and it would have been received better.
Though I have to say H3 was more of a black sheep than New Beginning was. Sure it was an impostor, but it was still a killer in a hockey mask and it followed the same rules as the earlier films unlike H3 which went in a completely different direction.
Either way I love both films.
I love both films. Halloween 3 is outstanding. Thats all I have to add
Halloween III: Season of the Witch confounded fans of the first two films of its series, expectations were dashed by abandoning the still-developing slasher formula in exchange for an ambitious social satire. In many ways the film was a dry-run for Carpenter’s They Live, a feverish mix of pointed social commentary and genre convention. It was created with a different goal entirely than the Michael Myers films and should be judged on its own merits, which are considerable when viewed without prejudice.
Friday the 13th Part V: A New Beginning, on the other hand, is a lifeless affair, limply dragging itself from one borrowed plot point to the next, never bothering to build up any sense of atmosphere, a distinctive trait of the first four Fridays and one of the main ingredients that separates the franchise from the glut of slasher films of the early ’80s. It feels, frankly, like a pornographic film, a threadbare (and largely irrelevant) plot used as a shallow device to connect murder sequences.
Wish I could come out for the series on this one, but Halloween III: Season of the Witch is simply superior.
Love both films. Friday 5 is one of my favorites.
I’m a big fan of the Halloween series and Michael Myers, and Halloween 3 Season of the Witch was just a movie that in the first place I did not really even get, so I don’t really look at it as part of the series. As for F13 Part 5, I really liked it, I mean compare H3 to the other films in the Halloween series it’s a about a phsychotic killer with a kitchen knife, while pt. 3 is about some weird possesed halloween masks that were made to kill children. At least F13 pt. 5 stayed true to the tone of the previous entries in the series (for the most part). I also think that Halloween 3 is to Friday the 13th part 5 what Jason X is to Halloween: Ressurection.
Once i got over the fact Michael Myers wasn’t in part 3, i realized it for what it was, a great horror film. The same goes for Friday 5 once you get passed the fact its not Jason.
With that out of the way, i would say Halloween 3 is more the black sheep since it is the furthest departure from what we know the franchise to be.
I guess you could say that they are both a WTF moment in each franchise.
When I was little, I loved to watched the marathons that aired. F5 never bothered me, I knew it wasn’t Jason but it didn’t matter. The formula was there right down to the eerie classic bg music. In it’s own right “it’s Jason”, With H3, I never could stand it. I’m a fan enough of MM to wach every new one to date as well growing up (nothing near my lust for Jason ever though) and I couldn’t handle to watch Season of the Witch. Now, today, some 15+ years later at least, I have been rounding up all sequals to Halloween since I’ve maxed out All Jason/Fred/Leatherface/etc and thought it was time to bargain bin MM (Sorry if that term offends anyone but I feel thats all he’s worth-aside from part 1 and 6 my FAV of the series) I picked up 2/3 combo pack @ Wal-mart and recently viewed it as an adult. Over the childish anger that I had then b/c it wasn’t MM, didn’t turn out to a bad film overall. I can respect the mytho of Halloween in general and it was unique to watch and understand the plot today. I just can’t stand that stupid “8 more days to Halloween) tv tune….gah! If it comes down to which I prefer though it’s obviously going to be “Friday 5″ to “Halloween 3″
Here’s a question in the question for you guys:
If the new-age modern remake series continues and does keep pumping them out (which they better get doing now but b/c they’re cash-cows today I doubt it) do you all think we will see another situation like the discussed topic? With like What F5 and Season of the Witch did?
lol I don’t know what HALO IS STOP TALKING ABOUT VIDEO GAMES
Whats this talk about Zombie Jason?? Wasn’t he a zombie in Part IV too? He was just a fresh zombie right? And it’s just not Laurie’s little cousin or the fact that Jason was brought back to life like Frankensteins’ monster – it was those things AND everything that was happening around it – I’m not alone check out rottentomatoes.com, where actual film critics, people who can be objective and know what they’re talking about, agree with me.
McLoughlin was the best director to grace the Friday franchise and if they want a good sequel they should hire him a again, at top dollar if necessary. He directed the material in the appropriate manner – why should we want to watch regular type sickos commit heinous acts, it’s sick. Give us a morality tale, give us Shakespeare! Universal Studios and Hammer Productions were very successful in providing that for us. This goes back to Part V, it was just sick, and it lacked class.
First off, Halloween III was a great horror film despite not being a “Michael Myers” movie. I think it was better then everything that came after Halloween 4, besides maybe The Curse of Michael Myers.
Secondly, besides the twist at the end, Friday 5 is about a guy ina hockey mask killing people one by one with naked tits all over the place. Seriously, Jason…Roy…what’s the difference?
Hallo 3 not Halo 3…read, man read!
By fans, in Friday 4 Jason was still in “Human” form and didn’t turn into Zombie Jason until that lighting bolt hit him in Friday 6…now that is common knowledge.
Rottentomatoes is where you go for reviews. Hummmm.
Transcended a genre, let’s talk about this; what other genre did Friday the 13th Part 6 transcend into that the others before didn’t? It didn’t. Movies like Jaws, Silence of the Lambs and The Sixth Sense are movies that transcend and genre. Actually the writer for Friday 6 should be sued by Universal for plagiarism; but that’s too easy. The Friday movies were already xeroxing themselves and painted themselves into a corner.
The Halloween 4 upper tier sequel; let’s break upper tier into movies that rival the original, ok. Because that is what it means. Do you really think Halloween 4 rivals the original Halloween? OUCH! An upper tier sequel would be Bride of Frankenstein, Dawn of the Dead and Psycho II just to name a few.
Here is why Halloween III and Friday the 13th Part 5 are disliked; they “tricked” the audience. They took the tried and true formula and messed with it and the audience got upset. Some people looked and went, “It was the only logical way to go,” but others are like sheep and only want to see either Myers or Voorhees. I hope they were happy with the out come because both franchise started to tank and went into the absurd abyss.
For the record, I absolutely love Friday the 13th’s but hate the Jason movies by New Line. You gotta love Friday films for what they are, needless fun but give credit where it’s due. The Halloween series went down hill after Carpenter left and has never, in MY opinion, has never regained the strength it should have. I loved Rob Zombies Halloween II, but hated his remake. But that is me; I like movies that go outside the box with the character instead of always being the same old formula.
I think Halloween would have worked as a television series better than both Friday the 13th and Freddys Nightmares. In fact… I am surprised no one has tried pushing for a Halloween televsion series based on John Carpenters orginal idea for the franchise. It could have had a “Trick Or Treat” type feel of it and occasional caught up with people from the Mike Myers storyline. Woulda been cool…especially if Carpenter was involved. Too bad Showtime won’t jump at something like this.
I’m so glad to hear to all of the love for Halloween 3! I absolutely adore that movie and it seems like most people won’t give it the time of day. You all have taste.
The situation is that you have these characters that became Iconic and you throw a movie in there like Season of the Witch, that has nothing to do at all with that iconic character. Pamela was not iconic and yes JASON is the series the reason being is he is the catalyst in every movie. Even in part 5. I personally feel that if you are going to create some sort of continuation without that iconic character then at least have a familiar face. Had Dr. Loomis made an appearance, even on a TV in the background fans would have picked up on it and they would have said “ok so this is a filler movie”. Thus, Season of the Which is WAYYY harder to swallow …not saying it wouldn’t have been a good stand-alone movie and to those of you who didn’t see it as trying to “milk the cash cow” just remember that there is no Mythology to Michael….yet